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Female representation in higher education leadership is growing. In this month’s interview, Kelly Cherwin spoke to Dr. Felecia Commodore, assistant professor of Educational Foundations and Leadership at Old Dominion University and Dr. Mamta Accapadi, vice president for student affairs at Rollins College. They discuss their professional backgrounds, leading as women of color in higher education, and building professional connections.
Kelly Cherwin, HigherEdJobs: Dr. Commodore, please tell us about your professional background that led you to your role as assistant professor at Old Dominion University.
Dr. Felecia Commodore, assistant professor, Old Dominion University: First, let me thank you for the opportunity to share in conversation with you. My professional background began with my being an admissions counselor once I graduated from undergrad. I really enjoyed the idea of helping students, particularly first-generation students, realize their dreams of going to college. As time went on, I realized that I liked the one on one working with students a bit more than the travel and transitioned to the role of academic advisor. During this time, I also pursued a Master’s degree in Higher Education Administration. My experiences in my master’s program married with my practitioner experience, made me become interested in understanding more regarding leadership, governance, and administrative practices at institutions, specifically HBCUs. This inspired me to pursue a Ph.D. in higher education once completing my master’s degree. While, in my doctoral program I saw great examples of faculty who did great, relevant research but also had impact on the communities with which they researched. I also noticed the lack of Black women faculty members in the academy. This is what inspired me to be a faculty member. And so here I am now, doing just that at Old Dominion.
Cherwin: Dr. Accapadi, please tell us about your professional path that led you to your role as the vice president for student affairs at Rollins College.
Dr. Mamta Accapadi, vice president for student affairs, Rollins College: I entered higher education leadership through student affairs. In my early career, I was a University Ombudsman for students, and worked in residence life. I eventually moved into multicultural affairs, providing support for underrepresented racial/ethnic communities and social justice education/curriculum development. I then transitioned into a more generalist leadership role as a dean of students, before becoming the vice president for student affairs. I have taught in ethnic studies, women & gender studies, and higher education graduate programs throughout my career.
Cherwin: You were both panelists discussing the topic of “Generations of Women Leaders in the Academy” at the recent ACE conference. What prompted your decision to participate in this panel presentation?
Commodore: I was honored to even be invited to participate. I think it’s important to have diverse perspectives around the conversation of women in leadership and so I wanted to be a part of that conversation. A vein of my research looks specifically at the relationship between Black women and leadership in the higher education sector. This includes everyone from the students to the president. Aside from my research, I also have had my own lived experiences of navigating leadership positions as a woman. For these two reasons I really wanted to engage in dialogue around women in leadership in higher education and empowerment. There were also some dynamite women on the panel and I wanted to glean all the wisdom I could from them as well.
Accapadi: ACE’s commitment to advancing careers of educators from all backgrounds is something I appreciate. I felt grateful to receive the invitation to participate in this panel on Women Leaders in the Academy because of its clear focus on the intersectional dimensions of women’s lived experiences in the academy. I chose to participate because I also wanted to support a broader dialogue on how we all play a part in advancing diversity and inclusion at our institutions, and that we interrupt the idea of a singular women’s narrative in the academy.
Cherwin: Dr. Accapadi, during the presentation you made a comment regarding the difficulty in navigating how you should act based on perception versus acting based on who you actually are. How do you deal with this?
Accapadi: I think navigating perceptions of who people “think” or “expect” me to be vs. actually being able to show up in my full authentic self is something I, and so many others, will have to deal with for the rest of our lives. While it is not fair for women of color (or for any other marginalized identities) to focus on perception of their tone of voice, appearance, or leadership style, it is still important we find a way to be effective. I think I deal with this focusing on my commitment to my relationships with my colleagues. This means, I try to stay in authentic relationship, hopefully allowing me to name the dynamics of tone policing, or differential interpretation of ‘effective leadership’ when I see those dynamics play out. As the only woman of color on my cabinet, it is a lonely place, and I need to both be able to have healthy relationships and be able to be my full self with my colleagues. Thankfully, I am part of a team that honors the wholeness of who I am.
I realize that what I am saying might feel problematic. I want to live and lead in a system where my gender and racial identities do not come with stereotypes and assumptions of my abilities; yet I also am keenly aware that while it might be exhausting, I want to create and interrupt an environment so that professionals of the future do not have to experience what I have experienced. I also think I have a responsibility to interrupt dynamics where I have a dominant identity. Particularly as a ciswoman, a currently able-bodied person, a person who lives an upper middle-class life, and beyond — I have a duty to point out how our systems might disproportionately impact others. Do my decisions create barriers for gender nonconforming colleagues? I navigate perceptions by caring for myself, and also making sure I am not perpetuating inaccurate perceptions of others — and believing my colleagues when they share their truths.
Cherwin: Dr. Commodore, you made a comment speaking to women of color in leadership stating that women need to “help each other, not haze each other.” What strategies do you have for women of color, or to all women in general, to empower and help female colleagues excel as leaders?
Commodore: This is a good question. I think that at the base of things, women have to not blindly assume the worst of other women. There are so many narratives that are put forth about women in the workplace, often born out of a patriarchal society that unfairly judges women. Things like women are awful bosses, or women are too emotional, or women are catty and competitive. I think we have to be careful not to buy into stereotypes and tropes and commit to supporting other women. Specifically regarding women of color, I believe a number of our foremothers and elders have broken barriers and done amazing things but have had to endure racist and misogynistic trauma in doing so. In our making sure the next generation of women of color do not have to endure similar trauma, or at the very least are prepared to navigate it, I think we must be sure that we are not instilling a different kind of trauma on them, through a trial by fire type experience. Mentoring, support, intergenerational conversations, group mentoring, I believe are all ways to do this. We just have to ensure that there isn’t a misconception that in order for someone to learn the lessons of the wise, they must have the same exact experience. Also, that mentoring is a two-way relationship and often both the mentor and mentee can learn from each other. Overall, I think we have to not look at each other as competition and see each other as collaborators and part of the same community. However, this means many people, women included, will have to interrogate their personal biases and how they act on them. This is especially true when we are speaking of intergenerational, interclass, and interracial interactions.
Cherwin: Dr. Accapadi, in a post on the ACPA website, the first statement describing you says, “Mamta Accapadi is a partner and a mother first. She is grateful to be in a head and heart space where her daughter challenges and affirms her sense of purpose every day.” The beginning of the 2nd paragraph then describes your professional role. Why is it important that your personal role is first and then your professional role? How do you balance both roles successfully?
Accapadi: It is important for me to be a whole person. I think the culture of work in general in our country is reaching a toxic level, and if people are not thriving, then our society and democracy will not thrive. I think we need to shift the pendulum and center our humanity, rather than perpetuating the politics of productivity that often lead to the dehumanization of people.
In terms of balance — I have never believed in balance. Balance, 50-50, is an unreasonable term that perpetuates much of the gender inequities we are trying to dismantle. Who has the ability to have balance? If I had balance, I would be ignoring the complexities of my identities. It is similar to the tension between equality and equity. In this case, if discussing how we are in relationship with our time, it should be an equitable experience of time. For me, an equitable experience of time means that I don’t have to choose between attending my daughter’s dance performance or participating in PTA events during the work day and going to student events at night. I am able to create an equitable experience because I have a completely supportive president who sees our humanity first, and I am also able to make choices that allow me to be fully present in all of my identities.
Cherwin: Dr. Accapadi and Dr. Commodore, what barriers do women in academia have when it comes to having a career and a family and how can those barriers be overcome? Are there different barriers for women of color and, if so, are there different strategies to embrace?
Commodore: I feel a bit limited in this area as I do not have a family in the traditional sense of the word (a spouse/partner and/or a child). But if we look at the research on women faculty and women leaders in higher education, we find that often women are paid less than their male counterparts and have to make a change in their career due to family care or similar reasons. The pairing of the two can make it hard for women to accelerate in their careers as well as properly provide for their families. Specifically, when looking at women faculty of color, we find that these women are often overloaded with service in ways their white counterparts are not, which makes it increasingly challenging to devote time to family. I think too often, when having the discussion of how can those barriers be overcome, the conversation puts the burden of doing so on the women in these systems. I think that the only true way for these barriers to be overcome is for them to be dismantled. Academia generally and institutions specifically need to interrogate and evaluate the ways in which they implicitly and explicitly create barriers for women to successfully navigate the ladder to success in their field as well as be present and participatory in their families. Instead of telling women how to best get past the blockages let’s just get rid of the blockages.
Accapadi: As a woman of color, I can speak to the barriers that I have, although I recognize that my racial and ethnic identities situate me differently from other women of color who have different lived experiences. In my case, the barrier that is most difficult for me is that I fall between being hypervisible or deeply invisible as I navigate the academy. So, if I use my voice in ways that white people (across a gender continuum) or men use their voices, I am seen as confrontational. And yet if I do not use my voice because I am aware that I need to be strategic about when and where I leverage my voice, I am seen as not assertive or that I do not communicate. There is never an equilibrium for me, and that is painful and disempowering at times.
As far as strategies — the reason I actively try to remember that my job is not ‘who’ I am, is that if I measured my self-worth from my professional experiences only, I would not be honoring the wholeness of my spirit. I surround myself with brilliant women from many different backgrounds and disciplines outside of higher education to remind myself that we are part of a greater good. I also have a small group of colleagues of color with whom I share experiences and seek/offer care.
Cherwin: A recent article stated that in addition to the work-life balance issue, other dilemmas that women leaders face in academia are 1) difficulty finding a mentor and 2) too little women representation in administrative ranks. What are your thoughts on these dilemmas and if you do agree they exist, what can be done by academia do to resolve these dilemmas?
Commodore: I agree that these issues do exist, particularly for mid-level managers or similar level positions. Specifically for women of color, this issue is exacerbated. Women of color not only have challenges finding high level leaders for mentors, but also many of the women who are available for mentoring are overwhelmed with mentoring responsibilities due to being one of a few, if not the only one. Academia can address these issues in a number of ways. One way is by granting more points of access for women to the leadership pipeline. This includes graduate school, mid-level, and executive positions and make sure this is occurring at all institutional types. Another area academia can address is incentivizing and encouraging the mentorship of women by all people, not just women. Everyone should be invested in developing women leaders. Lastly, institutions and their leaders need to be educated about gender bias including how it works uniquely for women of color. Likewise, accountability measures need to be in place for remedying issues of sexism, racism, and bias, both explicit and implicit, that restrict the ability for women leaders to persist and achieve within higher education.
Accapadi: I think we need to re-think mentorship. Our mentors do not need to look like us or believe what we believe. Our mentors need to champion our story, and guide us along the way. I think we expect our mentors to do the heavy lifting in our relationships. Having a mentor is hard work — meaning it is our responsibility to cultivate the relationship and outcomes we want with and from our mentors. I have many mentors who support me in different ways. I have mentors outside of my field. The most important dimension is to be fully open to learning and trying new ways of doing and being.
I think that while there is still a struggle with the number of women in administrative ranks, there has been an increase in the advancement of women over the past decade. Where I struggle more is that, across the generational and racial dimensions, I see women practicing patriarchy and racism. So, I feel more concern that there is not a reflexive humility around how the intersection of subordinated identities impacts women. So, when I see white women in leadership tone policing women of color, or not recognizing how cisnormativity impacts how gender nonconforming people are treated — that is deeply problematic. And that mindset is grounded in a liberal feminist frame that is an echo of the ‘pull yourself up by your bootstrap’ mindset, of ‘if I did it, you can do it,’ along with the mindset that ‘if men can treat people this way, so can I.’ These frames are not helpful, and only perpetuate the problem.
Cherwin: The article “Challenges Facing Female Leaders of Color in U.S. Higher Education” argues that although women of color are becoming more visible in higher ed leadership positions, they face significant barriers throughout their career, such as a wage gap, discrimination, and a lack of recognition for their accomplishments. Do you have any advice for women of color seeking leadership positions on how to persevere or take action as they face challenges in the workplace?
Commodore: Knowledge is power in this area. Know as much about formal policies and common practices in your organization. Also know as much about salaries across the organization and the marketplace, and always negotiate your first offer. Also, I find that modesty isn’t always the best policy for women of color when it comes to being recognized for their accomplishments. Nominate yourself for an award, send out formal and informal communications about publications, books, talks, grants, promotions, etc. Be your own cheerleader. Also, find community. If you can’t find it at your institution, which is a very real reality for some women of color, create connections across the field that can serve as support and a safe space. Last but not least, engage in radical self-care. Our mental, physical, and spiritual health are germane to our survival and success. We must prioritize them.
Cherwin: Do you think there is a “mean girl” syndrome that exists between women in higher education where females are not supportive of each other?
Commodore: I think the idea of a “mean girl” syndrome is already taking a sexist and patriarchal view of intragender relations for women. There are just people who are mean. You notice no one ever says there is a “mean boys” syndrome though men can also be not supportive of other men. I do think, however, that academia has created an environment that breeds competition and the idea that without a competitive nature one cannot succeed. Unfortunately for women, when there are less of us, the belief in a scarcity of opportunity and resources can force some women to become hypercompetitive with other women. I think if we can begin to simultaneously change these environments that reward, normalize, and encourage this behavior while socializing women in higher education to support each other, these instances can become minimized. I also think we have to stop assuming women have to be nice.
Accapadi: I wouldn’t call it a ‘mean girl’ syndrome. I would call it internalized and horizontal sexism across gender broadly. We get accustomed to being treated a certain way, and we normalize that oppression within. We have often gotten to our positions because we were ‘the only’ ones in many spheres; or the exceptions in a narrow interpretation of excellence, so we feel compelled to validate those notions of excellence. Our job is to expand definitions of excellence that have perpetuated patriarchal, colonial, and white frames of being. We should embrace the wisdom that comes from all of the identities our colleagues bring to the table.
I would also say that we need to be careful how we talk about this concept of ‘mean girls’ because when women with other intersecting subordinated identities speak up, and are critiqued for not showing up in ‘solidarity,’ we must consider that the invocation of solidarity has rarely meant supporting the full inclusion of women of color, genderqueer, and transgender people. Oftentimes, minoritized women get judged as ‘mean girls’ for not supporting their white cishet colleagues. That is not ‘mean girl syndrome’ — that is a claiming of humanity. We should be clear about distinguishing the roots of behaviors.
Cherwin: Another idea that was brought up in the ACE session was “networking sideways.” What is meant by this and why is this important to/for female leaders?
Commodore: I understand networking sideways as peer networking. Often we attempt to network up, but forget to network and create substantive relationships with our peers. This is important for women leaders as it creates the foundations and networks to work strategically to ensure upward and outward movement as a collective. Also, often these are relationships that are much more accessible and can not only increase access to resources but also access to information and mentoring.
Cherwin: What is your advice for a female entering the field of academia either in an administrative or faculty role? What words of wisdom can you offer?
Commodore: Specifically for women interested in a faculty role is to be yourself. Though you should have role models and mentors, do not think it is necessary to be a carbon copy of someone else to be successful. Be authentic. Also, do not put all of your mentoring “eggs” in one “basket.” You should have a team of mentors that aid you in figuring out the path that is right for you. These persons may be women, or not women. They should include peers as well as those further along in their careers. You also need community. No one does this in a silo. Surround yourself with people who can support you and push you to be your best. Likewise, be supportive. Support others and support other women. Do good work and don’t believe that you don’t belong here. You do.
Accapadi: I don’t know if I have words of wisdom. I would say that when I felt like I was losing myself at different points in my career, I am grateful for the reminder of who I come from. I come from generations of women whose bodies were colonized, whose stories eclipsed, and whose wisdom still runs strong through my family. In spite of the challenges, I am a daughter standing on the sacrifices of goddesses. I offer that who we are, is enough.
Cherwin: What keeps you engaged in working in the field of academia?
Commodore: I love being part of a group of people who are shaping knowledge. We are learning the world and reimagining it at the same time. I also get to be a part of the journey of so many great minds as they find themselves and their intellectual passions. I believe that as higher education scholars, specifically, we have a duty to ensure that higher education institutions are being equitable and servicing all of our students well. I also hope that my work can help contribute to ensuring that those who are often disenfranchised by society are supported and empowered. This has to be more than a job. It has to be a commitment to purpose and we must lead purpose-driven lives, even as academics. I see myself as not just a scholar, but as a servant to the communities with which I identify and the communities with which I research. That is was keeps me engaged.
Accapadi: I stay in the field because I believe in the transformative potential of higher education on the lives of students and ultimately the well-being of our society. I stay engaged because access and equity issues have been deeply important to me as values, and I see the dialogue in theoretical spaces, and we need more people to implement theoretical ideals into actual practice. I purposefully chose to be an administrator hoping that the aggregate of decisions I make will, over time, shift a system toward greatest inclusion and aspiration for a greater good.